Moaning and excuses

[BenLynch29]

I may need to take a day’s break from the forum. There’s a lot of moaning and excuses in various thread right now related to last night’s loss. Don’t worry - I won’t let the door hit me on the way out!

But seriously, last night was a very winnable game for us and I refuse to accept that we can’t compete at this level or get results against clubs like Valencia on more than a one-off basis. Valencia are a good squad, and credit where it’s due: they came with a plan to get a result and didn’t make silly mistakes. That our own club didn’t do the same doesn’t mean that we can’t compete against Valencia or at this level of European competition generally. All it means is that we failed to succeed where we should have more than the ocassional success.

Look at this chart for a minute:


Celtic is a middle of the pack team with respect to resources at this stage of the Europa League, and even then money doesn’t always guarantee results. Arsenal, Lazio, Galatasray all lost yesterday while Leverkusen was held scoreless and Chelsea only won by a single goal again lowly Malmo. How is it that Salzburg can go 6-0 in the group stage including a decisive win at Celtic Park? It’s clearly not because they have more money than we do! And it also isn’t because they play in the super awesome Austrian league against vastly superior competition.

The truth is we lost last night because of defensive mistakes made by players who should have, by all rights, been replaced in the January transfer window. We might not have won had we not made those mistakes, but a 0-0 result would have been fair given the level of competition.

It’s also fair to recognize BR’s part in this failure, both on the player recruitment front as well as the tactics. He may be the best manager we’ve had since Jock, and perhaps even equal, but he’s not infallible.

I refuse to accept that we can’t or won’t ever be a force in European competition again. We have sufficient resources to regularly go on a deep run in Europa. Instead of accepting failure as our lot in life, we should be asking (demanding?) what the club is doing to address our shortcomings?

Finally, the fact needs to be addressed that every club that has beaten us this year, both domestically as well as Europa and Champions League, have lower turnover than we do. That’s a verifiable fact. This isn’t an issue of inferior resources. This is an issue of being beaten by those with fewer resources than we have - and that includes Valencia last night, as well as Salzburg, Athens, Hibs, and Rangers. With nearly £40m in the bank and more on the way, we should be asking what our club is going to do to take us further than the round of 32 in Europa.

Or is another treble and 10 in a row the extent of our ambition against squads that are, at best, 1/2 or 1/3 as expensive as ours?

 

[michael duffy]

if the tactics are wrong and the players don't turn up prepared to put a shift in,ye lose!

 

[The Galway shawl]

if the tactics are wrong and the players don't turn up prepared to put a shift in,ye lose!

Bang on 'streetcar ???

 

[Maria]

Simples.

 

[Weedocbhoy60]

I may need to take a day’s break from the forum. There’s a lot of moaning and excuses in various thread right now related to last night’s loss. Don’t worry - I won’t let the door hit me on the way out!

But seriously, last night was a very winnable game for us and I refuse to accept that we can’t compete at this level or get results against clubs like Valencia on more than a one-off basis. Valencia are a good squad, and credit where it’s due: they came with a plan to get a result and didn’t make silly mistakes. That our own club didn’t do the same doesn’t mean that we can’t compete against Valencia or at this level of European competition generally. All it means is that we failed to succeed where we should have more than the ocassional success.

Look at this chart for a minute:
View attachment 1421

Celtic is a middle of the pack team with respect to resources at this stage of the Europa League, and even then money doesn’t always guarantee results. Arsenal, Lazio, Galatasray all lost yesterday while Leverkusen was held scoreless and Chelsea only won by a single goal again lowly Malmo. How is it that Salzburg can go 6-0 in the group stage including a decisive win at Celtic Park? It’s clearly not because they have more money than we do! And it also isn’t because they play in the super awesome Austrian league against vastly superior competition.

The truth is we lost last night because of defensive mistakes made by players who should have, by all rights, been replaced in the January transfer window. We might not have won had we not made those mistakes, but a 0-0 result would have been fair given the level of competition.

It’s also fair to recognize BR’s part in this failure, both on the player recruitment front as well as the tactics. He may be the best manager we’ve had since Jock, and perhaps even equal, but he’s not infallible.

I refuse to accept that we can’t or won’t ever be a force in European competition again. We have sufficient resources to regularly go on a deep run in Europa. Instead of accepting failure as our lot in life, we should be asking (demanding?) what the club is doing to address our shortcomings?

Finally, the fact needs to be addressed that every club that has beaten us this year, both domestically as well as Europa and Champions League, have lower turnover than we do. That’s a verifiable fact. This isn’t an issue of inferior resources. This is an issue of being beaten by those with fewer resources than we have - and that includes Valencia last night, as well as Salzburg, Athens, Hibs, and Rangers. With nearly £40m in the bank and more on the way, we should be asking what our club is going to do to take us further than the round of 32 in Europa.

Or is another treble and 10 in a row the extent of our ambition against squads that are, at best, 1/2 or 1/3 as expensive as ours?

Ben my opinion, for what it's worth, is that the board are trying to do 10iar while keeping a healthy bank balance. European progression seems to have been out on the back burner. So does PL know something we don't ( lots probably) and are we keeping a healthy bank balance for reasons other than a salary bonus, I hope so.
Until we get that back four sorted and a proper number 9 we will get nowhere in Europe anyway. We need to be harder to beat at home.

 

[The Shamrock]

The past is another country and we have to put last night behind us. The bhoys have to play with a bit more pride next time and try at least to give a decent account of themselves.
Have been saying for weeks, along with many others here, that winning the domestic triple treble is far more important this season than the Europa League.

 

[The Galway shawl]

We crying are out for a center forward have been since moussa left. French eddy never C/F and a work in progress.

 

[TET]

I may need to take a day’s break from the forum. There’s a lot of moaning and excuses in various thread right now related to last night’s loss. Don’t worry - I won’t let the door hit me on the way out!

But seriously, last night was a very winnable game for us and I refuse to accept that we can’t compete at this level or get results against clubs like Valencia on more than a one-off basis. Valencia are a good squad, and credit where it’s due: they came with a plan to get a result and didn’t make silly mistakes. That our own club didn’t do the same doesn’t mean that we can’t compete against Valencia or at this level of European competition generally. All it means is that we failed to succeed where we should have more than the ocassional success.

Look at this chart for a minute:
View attachment 1421

Celtic is a middle of the pack team with respect to resources at this stage of the Europa League, and even then money doesn’t always guarantee results. Arsenal, Lazio, Galatasray all lost yesterday while Leverkusen was held scoreless and Chelsea only won by a single goal again lowly Malmo. How is it that Salzburg can go 6-0 in the group stage including a decisive win at Celtic Park? It’s clearly not because they have more money than we do! And it also isn’t because they play in the super awesome Austrian league against vastly superior competition.

The truth is we lost last night because of defensive mistakes made by players who should have, by all rights, been replaced in the January transfer window. We might not have won had we not made those mistakes, but a 0-0 result would have been fair given the level of competition.

It’s also fair to recognize BR’s part in this failure, both on the player recruitment front as well as the tactics. He may be the best manager we’ve had since Jock, and perhaps even equal, but he’s not infallible.

I refuse to accept that we can’t or won’t ever be a force in European competition again. We have sufficient resources to regularly go on a deep run in Europa. Instead of accepting failure as our lot in life, we should be asking (demanding?) what the club is doing to address our shortcomings?

Finally, the fact needs to be addressed that every club that has beaten us this year, both domestically as well as Europa and Champions League, have lower turnover than we do. That’s a verifiable fact. This isn’t an issue of inferior resources. This is an issue of being beaten by those with fewer resources than we have - and that includes Valencia last night, as well as Salzburg, Athens, Hibs, and Rangers. With nearly £40m in the bank and more on the way, we should be asking what our club is going to do to take us further than the round of 32 in Europa.

Or is another treble and 10 in a row the extent of our ambition against squads that are, at best, 1/2 or 1/3 as expensive as ours?

You claim resources is not the issue. Which means its either the playing staff or the style of management thats the issue.

Your right that it is possible for Celtic to be doing better with the resources.

You claim we should have replaced certain players in January which would involve resources.

But are we certain that better players are available and willing to come to Scotland on less wages than we currently pay.

Are you suggesting that the club should expand its operation costs short term to burn away the cash surplus quicker?

Is SPFL an attractive propostion for better players. Salzburg players may well get paid less to play in Austria but is the weather much better generally, is it a nice place to live, will they be accosted for their religion, will their every movement be scrutinised by a hateful MSM, can they cope with the extra expectation of playing for Celtic?

You rightly point out that money does not guarantee anything in football and the nature of 11 men v 11 men means every single match has potential for win loss or draw.

So the competition is fierce. So maybe just maybe getting to last 32 in europa cup is actually quite an achievement considering the talent thats spread across european teams who are just as strong as Celtic.

I remember reading that no Scottish team will ever reach a n european final again. Then in 2000's Celtic and Rangers (before the went pan bread) got to a final .

The current situation in europe means its tougher each year but not impossible to get far in competition with quality signings and quality management.

But that cost money unless you come froma nation producing high quality football players who love your team. Scotland once had high quality players coming through because of the vast population playing game every day on streets. We no longer produce plethora of talent.

That means you need to rely on mercenaries. And the kind 0of mercenaries who are going to win big european tourneys cost big resources. Just try buying Salzburg best players on cheap.

And the fact Scotland is considered backwater by eufa clubs then the likelihood is that top quality mercanaries arec only coming here if the wages are extraordinarily good. Because if they are good enough to win european trophies the best clubs in europe will want them.

Finally you point out that resources are not absolutely necesarry to create a good team especially on isolated games. Then say Celtic have lost to teams with less resources as if that doesnt make any sense.

The general quality of the palyers goes out the window on any given saturday or match day. Sometimes the duff team wins. Sometimes the quality team loses. Thats life.

To win cup competition with many many rounds against mostly similar quality teams whether they get paid more or less is a very difficult thing to do very well in very often. But massive resources can help in the short term but only in short term if your income doesnt cover the wages.


Conclusion

Celtic can win against big teams.
But the players need to be on their best game with adeqaute tactics and determined will to get past the opposition. Thats not so easy when the other teams are similar strength and just as determined to win.

Can Celtic do better in europe. YES
Will they do better in future. I hope so.

But Scottish football needs to become better home for all teams. Playing against teams every week who mostly counter attack or defend for thier lives means the defence are never very sharp when midfield make mistakes which when you come up against classy team with good speed and synergy you are gonna get lots of defensive mistakes.

Bonus of playing in Scotalnd is Celtic are by far best team already.
Bad thing playing is Scotalnd is not good preparation for playing against classy european teams in one off games.

No matter who our players are in future they will need to ovrcome that problem, playing weaker teams generally leaves you unprepared for teams match fit and sharp for higher class football.

BEst we can hope for is Scotland starts producing its very own high class players agcross the entire game and become a a nation a better football standard across the board.

Mercenaries may or may not be the answer but they will cost large resources either way if you need them.
We still havent found out what Brexit means for football in UK.

 

[michael duffy]

nailed it again TET HH.

 

[TheGreatOne]

I may need to take a day’s break from the forum. There’s a lot of moaning and excuses in various thread right now related to last night’s loss. Don’t worry - I won’t let the door hit me on the way out!

But seriously, last night was a very winnable game for us and I refuse to accept that we can’t compete at this level or get results against clubs like Valencia on more than a one-off basis. Valencia are a good squad, and credit where it’s due: they came with a plan to get a result and didn’t make silly mistakes. That our own club didn’t do the same doesn’t mean that we can’t compete against Valencia or at this level of European competition generally. All it means is that we failed to succeed where we should have more than the ocassional success.

Look at this chart for a minute:
View attachment 1421

Celtic is a middle of the pack team with respect to resources at this stage of the Europa League, and even then money doesn’t always guarantee results. Arsenal, Lazio, Galatasray all lost yesterday while Leverkusen was held scoreless and Chelsea only won by a single goal again lowly Malmo. How is it that Salzburg can go 6-0 in the group stage including a decisive win at Celtic Park? It’s clearly not because they have more money than we do! And it also isn’t because they play in the super awesome Austrian league against vastly superior competition.

The truth is we lost last night because of defensive mistakes made by players who should have, by all rights, been replaced in the January transfer window. We might not have won had we not made those mistakes, but a 0-0 result would have been fair given the level of competition.

It’s also fair to recognize BR’s part in this failure, both on the player recruitment front as well as the tactics. He may be the best manager we’ve had since Jock, and perhaps even equal, but he’s not infallible.

I refuse to accept that we can’t or won’t ever be a force in European competition again. We have sufficient resources to regularly go on a deep run in Europa. Instead of accepting failure as our lot in life, we should be asking (demanding?) what the club is doing to address our shortcomings?

Finally, the fact needs to be addressed that every club that has beaten us this year, both domestically as well as Europa and Champions League, have lower turnover than we do. That’s a verifiable fact. This isn’t an issue of inferior resources. This is an issue of being beaten by those with fewer resources than we have - and that includes Valencia last night, as well as Salzburg, Athens, Hibs, and Rangers. With nearly £40m in the bank and more on the way, we should be asking what our club is going to do to take us further than the round of 32 in Europa.

Or is another treble and 10 in a row the extent of our ambition against squads that are, at best, 1/2 or 1/3 as expensive as ours?

I get your sentiment but it all comes back to the fact Valencia spent 24m on ONE player - regardless of the chart you’ve posted, is that the level you expect us to be competing at?

Anytime we HAVE pushed in Europe we have been the underdog. It’s unexpected and it’s a big thing.

I expect better in Europe, yes, but we aren’t at these teams level in resources. We should be able to compete a little better but that all comes down to the management of the resources we do have.

We have done better, with players of lesser value than we have now. Why? Maybe we didn’t have so many substandard players on big wages which boosts your chart. Maybe we played better tactics.

In my opinion, BR has not done himself any justice in Europe at all and has also performed poorly in the transfer market - two MAJOR things if we are ever going to have any sort of run.

What we have is good enough for 10IAR, the style we play dominates the league but it has to change against better teams. We can’t try and play possession based football against the big guns, it just hasn’t worked in the slightest.

It’s not excuses or moaning per say, it’s just the realism of the situation. We wont spend equal to these European clubs but a lot has to be changed to get us going.

 

[Noah Billy]

Good OP and responses. I'm kinda with the original poster, I think we are hiding behind the resource issue, I would expect most of the teams below us in his chart to beat us in Europe. So why then? I have consistently stated that if we want to do better in Europe and let's face it we're talking EL here, I don't think BR is the man to do it. He showed early on he didn't have the minerals (away in Israel?) And for me he still hasn't. Given more resources i still see no evidence that he would improve our chances. He "learns lessons" but again there's no evidence if that learning being put into practice. I got slaughtered for that viewpoint up the road at the weekend and I'm sure I will again.

But it all depends what's you think its important. Is winning the next three leagues everything , never mind cups or trebles? It probably is but getting pumped in Europe by teams we should be competing against is really getting on my tits noo. It's the not competing that gets me.....

 

[JimMc]

Love BR at Celtic.
But like life nothing is and never can be perfect!

Managers get lucky for a period time and some may look genius or the special one, but! look at the overview of any past reality and the conclusion is - time changes all.
Tactics change or evolve that largely negate any other previously successful tactics or supposed way!
Meaning there are no human genius! just people who are good at or even excellent at some things for a period of time. In time all will look mediocre or obvious or foolish in a current time context.

The Lisbon Lions were genius of their day kicking a heavy wet lump of leather, outstanding team and manager of their time, if they were magically given a chance and rejuvenated to their prime levels of skill and fitness, it is very likely that they would need to seriously adapt and change tactics and go to new levels of fitness to even win a match in Europe today.

BR is stuck in a part of a past system!
BR thinks the way to play football is the Barca way, the way Barca no longer play! as other teams have worked out how to counter it!
In summary the players did turn up, the first half they looked half decent if a little nervous and
uninspired! But it is BR who insists on static tactics playing out of defence against teams who are either as or more skilled, as is the case in near all teams playing at this stage in Europe.

I was surprised at the post match straight to the point question on tv by who ever the female journalist was, but not surprised by BR answer. His slightly sheepish reply and add on to try and emphasise his claim! only highlighted how self convinced he is of the pass out the back ALL THE TIME!
He was not completely honest in his reply, suggesting it was the players had the decision, and brought pressure on themselves.

If he was honest! then he needs to look at who ever is coaching his instructions!

He is not going to change even if it is obvious to all else.
That's why some players are never given a proper chance, but the likes of some even when playing poorly, but most of the time were successfully completing passes back or sideways was no problem for BR, even if those passes caused unnecessary pressure.

I was never expecting much Thurs but that was a needless embarrassment to the outstanding fans. Relaxed because it is clear we are not strong enough for a European run and for the League.

Celtic win-10-in-a-row is all for me.
After that another European Cup.

so relaxed about results on the mainland of Europe, but agree that we could have and many another manager would have got a result of some kind on Thurs! but and it is a big but!
they would likely also be the kind of manager who will drop many more points in the league being too cautious.

You can't have it all ways in anything in life.

 

[dmac]

In the past teams with.lesser resources have managed results against bigger teams because they had a defensive unit that stuck to its task and was aided by the midfield sometimes people overcomplicate the game with tactics of you are being shut downplaying it out from the back then give your forwards a couple of balls into the wide areas to chase and !is it up then the other team has to step back a bit so they don't get caught out playing the same passes around the back every time makes it easy for teams to catch you out

 

[JimMc]

On the plus side.
BR won't be getting any extra PL clubs agents calls, and we might just get a shout on signing Burke if he looks not up to scratch.
Seen some WBA fans say sell him now and get whatever money!
He is a player and he will get even better, but if he showed on it on Thurs or next week, the slim chance will be no chance.

 

[TheGreatOne]

On the plus side.
BR won't be getting any extra PL clubs agents calls, and we might just get a shout on signing Burke if he looks not up to scratch.
Seen some WBA fans say sell him now and get whatever money!
He is a player and he will get even better, but if he showed on it on Thurs or next week, the slim chance will be no chance.

I do wish we’d just scrap this trying to turn him into a CF. The boy has pace, it’s his biggest asset, whack him back on the wing and let him beat people.

Playing sideways as we tend to do through the middle, he isn’t going to have as much of an impact.

 

[michael duffy]

In the past teams with.lesser resources have managed results against bigger teams because they had a defensive unit that stuck to its task and was aided by the midfield sometimes people overcomplicate the game with tactics of you are being shut downplaying it out from the back then give your forwards a couple of balls into the wide areas to chase and !is it up then the other team has to step back a bit so they don't get caught out playing the same passes around the back every time makes it easy for teams to catch you out

exactly what st.johnstone did to el geriatrico's today for slippy g, read terry henry